Church Diversity depends on Calvinism?~John Piper Come on!
What makes effective, biblical diversity in the church?
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Being the pastor of a large multi-ethnic church and involved in planting more of the same I write and speak on this often, it is one of my greatest passions. So I was quite intrigued when I read an article on this issue the other day by John Piper…
“So, what should racial reconciliation be based on?…today there are many young, black, thoughtful men and women who are seeing that the reformed tradition is coherent with-not contrary to-what has been deeply held and believed and lived out of in the black tradition.
The common ground that is needed for racial reconciliation is the vision of the sovereign God of the Bible coming into coherence with the long-experienced sovereign God of the black church. http://ow.ly/3ZQM3
Wow! That’s a HUGE leap to say that diversity in the church should be based on Reformed Theology! Please don’t misunderstand me. I highly respect John, this is not a personal issue at all, just one of conviction and perspective. I think it’s dangerous when we tie the success of something biblical (church diversity) to a man made system (School of Theology).
Diversity in the church is a cry of God’s heart! It’s the way He designed the church to be. I have never seen the success (or failure) of a true multi-ethnic church depend on it’s school of Theology! It’s success depends on the leaders and those involved having a heart of unconditional love, unwavering obedience and being comfortable being uncomfortable (and others).
Love ya John, and admire your passion for your school of Theology, but extending that passion to include being the key component in a diverse church…Come on !
Agree or disagree?
55 Responses to “Church Diversity depends on Calvinism?~John Piper Come on!”
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John Piper ~ Church Diversity depends on Calvinism? Come on! http://bit.ly/dOK1Tp
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Alice Fillie Faboe says:
I sure would appreciate if someone could present a comparative Theological analysis in this forum in order to shed light on other theological and Biblical traditions taught by the known Theologians which may present an opportunity to make an informed response to Johns’ article. Come on please help.
Cory McDonald says: I can see where John is coming from and if he is meaning it the way that I think he is then I agree with him. To me John is saying that african americans are understanding the truthfulness of reformed theology and are starting to be drawn to it. I disagree that churches don’t fail because of theology. You can take the most successful church planters, pastors, etc and have a big church with lots of money fail horribly because those same “successful” people have unbiblical, horrid theology. But, I agree with most of what you’re saying! God Bless and thank you for your Kingdom work and a great blog.
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Thanks Cory, I think the point is, Reformed theology is not the only school of theology. Strong church needs good theology. But it doesn’t have to be Reformed.
After reading the entire article from Piper, I don’t think he’s saying that Calvinism will unite the Church. He’s saying that doctrine matters. When he emphasizes the reformed tradition, he is not saying Calvinism; he is embracing the very tradition that led to the formation of the Protestant Church. He’s emphasizing the need to base our understanding of God not on experience or what others tell us, but instead to ground our view of God on the Bible alone as authority.
There is no one school of theology that has it all right. But the reformed tradition will unite us in purpose and vision. I think it’s important to remember the “solas” that define the reformation: Sola scriptura (Scripture alone), sola gratia (grace alone), sola fide (faith alone), souls Christus (Christ alone), and soli Deo gloria (glory to God alone). When we are defined by these, I think unity will happen b/c we will have a solid foundation, fundamental agreement, and singular purpose
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Thanks Charles. another point here is that a good, strong church doesn’t have to “announce” or broadcast their school of theology. Lets face it, if you advertise, that is what you will draw. I think we need “as many as would” to come.
Church Diversity depends on Calvinism?~John Piper. Come on! http://bit.ly/dOK1Tp
I am with the guys below. It seems to me that Piper is saying that a key component to diversity in the church is a right view of the sovereign God. God’s sovereignty is NOT a man-made theology, it is the character of God and is a BIBLICAL theology, and I think we are approaching dangerous territory to suggest otherwise. Theology not rooted in the Bible may not cause a church to “stop growing,” but it sure does remove the blessing of God over the church. A right view of God is very necessary when developing diversity in the church. I know that’s been the dominant reason for the diversity in our church. Has nothing to do with style of worship or any of those man-made components, but has everything to do with who God is and how He works. Just my two cents.
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Hey Kenny, I don’t think any one questions the Sovereignty of God. But we know there are differing views and schools of theology. And to exalted one as being the only one or right for the context of a diverse church causes the opposite. It polarizes, it doesn’t bring unity.
I’m with you on this Artie. Articles like this echo Piper and Co.’s larger strategy to unite all Baptist denominations under the Calvinist banner, and while noble in a way, it ignores the fact that the “many young, black, thoughtful men and women who are seeing that the reformed tradition is coherent with-not contrary to-what has been deeply held and believed and lived out of in the black tradition” are in fact a small sector of the Black Baptist church-going population as a whole and not the large number in the White community that has aided the rapid growth of the Reformed Baptist movement.
But to me the larger issue is still the fact that people actually think Calvinism (or any doctrine for that matter) can cure all ills. It seems that folks run around with the unshakable belief that the Reformed Tradition can cure all ills from the racial divide to global warming to keeping the fresh-from-the-dryer smell in your clothes all week long. Doctrine is fine and all, but it’s still a distillation of God’s Word through man’s opinion, with all of the problems that it entails. If doctrine were the key, the Memphis Miracle would have happened in 1948 and not 1994.
RT: @ArtieDavis Church Diversity depends on Calvinism?~John Piper. Come on! http://bit.ly/dOK1Tp
//diversity is Gods idea! Always!
Artie,
great discussion. Our theology is the fuel drives how we live. As a black pastor of a large multi-ethnic church in the Charlotte, NC area, who is mentored by Dr. Norm Geisler, theology, apologetics , and philosophy are very important to how lead and teach.
It is important for us to remember that “the Reformed view” of John Piper is not the only expression of the faith that was birthed out the Reformation.
God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility do compete, they cooperate.
Derwin
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Yeah, but is that school of Theology the “key” diversity? Can’t be. Then no leader who is Armenian can have diverse congregation.
RT @artiedavis: Really! John Piper ~ Church Diversity depends on Calvinism? Come on! http://bit.ly/dOK1Tp
RT @artiedavis: Blogged John Piper ~ Church Diversity depends on Calvinism? Come on!: http://tinyurl.com/4obqhoq
RT @artiedavis: Really! John Piper ~ Church Diversity depends on Calvinism? Come on! http://bit.ly/dOK1Tp
Wow, this hurts my heart. I have a ton of respect for John Piper. However, the exaltation of a system of beliefs over the unity of the body is damaging and stifles true unity in the Spirit. Unity is not singularly defined by “agreement”.
My biggest problem with Calvinism is that it so thoroughly defines God and all mystery is removed. It says that God can be fully known and proceeds to define Him. With that position, your mission then begins convincing everyone else of the truth that you have defined. Lines are drawn in the sand and while you can have a condescending smile of tolerating another belief system, ultimately you look down at them because they don’t see things as you see things. You cannot truly be united because you aren’t fully in agreement in all things. I’m sorry but that is not how relationships work.
I don’t believe diversity has anything to do with doctrine or theology. On the contrary, taking a position like Piper’s is VERY exclusive.
I’m not advocating cheapening truth. Jesus is the way the truth and the life. No doubt about that. There’s no room for inter-faith stuff. I won’t compromise on that. But I’m sorry, not breaking bread with someone (or doing it solely for the purpose of convincing them they are wrong) because of their stance on the TULIP is cancerous to the body.
This hits home. John Piper ~ Church Diversity depends on Calvinism? Come on! http://bit.ly/dOK1Tp
What a true but sad thought. Our theology of God is important to the growth and yeah, even the diversity of the Church as a whole and in local churches. We need to know what we believe before we can teach others. All that is true. Before I continue, if someone asked me if I was a Calvinist or an Arminian I would probably answer “no”. I’m neither, but I do believe both are based in centuries of scriptural study by Godly men and women who have given their lives to serve Him. Both schools of thought have merit and should not be dismissed by the other without serious consideration. I believe both are inadequate as they seek to negate the other. And both views exclude certain scriptures in attempts to explain the other away.
After reading the article, I believe Piper is suggesting (after all his findings) that Reformed Theology is the way to diversify a church…that is what I find as sad. Calvinism, by nature, DOES teach diversity (Irresistible Grace). It doesn’t matter who you are (Unconditional Election) or where you come from, you will be saved, if you are elect. So I can see why he says what he says…but I disagree with him.
I don’t know if this will make sense or not, but I feel like Piper is looking at a global situation with American eyes. (The Americanization or Westernization of the Gospel is a different topic all together). With or without the Calvinism/Arminianism debate, the Church, globally, is diversified. Heaven is promised to be diversified in this way (every tongue, tribe and nation).
Maybe I am misreading Piper, but it sounds like diversity is the goal. This may not gel with some, but our goal is not diversity. Diversity should be more of a bi-product of the ministry. Our goal is to serve God fully where ever we are and where ever we go.
RT @artiedavis: Church Diversity depends on Calvinism?~John Piper. WOW! http://bit.ly/dOK1Tp
RT @artiedavis: Church Diversity depends on Calvinism?~John Piper. WOW! http://bit.ly/dOK1Tp
Loren C. Klein says: Dr. Piper’s comments are just part of a broader trend of he and his acolytes attempting to bring all Baptists into the Reformed fold. To think that African-American Baptists will jump onto the Reformed train when there’s nowhere near the tradition in “white” churches is a bit naive.
It also is another example of where adherents of the Teformed Tradition think that Calvinism can solve everything from climate change to keeping that just-from-the-dryer smell in your clothes all week long. Doctrine at it’s core is merely the nature of God through our flawed lens, and thinking it will solve all ills is simply naieve.
If Docrtine did solve all ills, then we would have had no need for the Memphis Miracle in 1994 as the doctrinally-identical charismatic and Pentecostal fellowships and denominations would have joined together in racial unity in 1948.
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Oh dear, I shouldn’t post on a blog on my phone. *blushes in embarrassment*
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Keeping the just from the dryer smell in your clothes all week! That was really funny.
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Anonymous says:
Ha. Thanks Dave.
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Hard to swallow. John Piper ~ Church Diversity depends on Calvinism? Come on! http://bit.ly/dOK1Tp
steve says: Wow! My church is one of the 4% of churches in US that is truly diverse. While I personally hold to a lot of reformed systematic theology, my senior pastor doesn’t. So how does one explain our diversity based on Dr. Piper’s defense?
RT @thesticks: Hard to swallow. John Piper ~ Church Diversity depends on Calvinism? Come on! http://bit.ly/dOK1Tp
Brookes August says: I agree with Piper. The whole question/answer article explains his point wonderfully. He’s not advocating reformed theology as much as unified sound theology and holding fast to hard Truth rather than watery pluralism.
So – church diversity doesn’t come down to merely leadership but rather leadership leading in sound doctrine.
Dave says: Interesting post, but it’s based on two flawed assumptions.
1) You assume Piper was talking about how to have a racial diverse local congregation. He wasn’t. He was speaking more broadly about racial reconciliation. People cannot be “reconciled” without a common agreement on the error, and theology helps us see the error.
2) You didn’t snip the most direct part of his answer to the question, “What should racial reconciliation be based upon?” His first words were, “Truth. Biblical truth, with a strong God-centered articulation of the gospel and the sovereignty of God.” Reconciliation not based on truth and the gospel will not sustain a local church nor The Church.
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Thanks for chiming in Dave, let me answer those.
1. He specifically states that Reformed theology needs to be the “Base” racial reconciliation in the church.2. To say the Reformed Theology is the only school of “Truth” means you are starting the conversation on a false premise.
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Joe Brand says:
Artie, from your quote it is clear he said no such thing. He said the reformed tradition is coherent with black church tradition. I seriously doubt Piper believes that reconciliation is possible only in Reformed churches. If that were true, it would be more widely noted in his many writings.
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RT @artiedavis: Very Bold! Church Diversity depends on Calvinism?~John Piper. Come on! http://bit.ly/dOK1Tp
I have less of a problem with Piper’s words than I do with you saying that a multi-ethnic church’s “success depends on the leaders and those involved having a heart of unconditional love…” The success of no church is ‘dependent’ on it’s leaders…it is always dependent on God. Therein lies the issue with a ‘man-centered’ theology, it all comes back to us.
I would say that if you want a true Biblical view of a ‘Sovereign God’ you find that in the Reformed tradition. I know that will catch me some flack here, but I think it is simply true. I won’t say that every successful church needs to be Calvinist, and I don’t think that is what Piper is saying either. Simply said, our view of God must be bigger…A small view of God is why we see so little change within the church…There are always exceptions to every rule, because God is a God of grace and pours that out on whomever He will.
Well, Chris I think you would find ANY pastor that would agree that a churches success has nothing to do leadership. God places leadership in place to insure the success of the church. That is why the Spirit gives that gift!
Agreed, but you didn’t make that distinction. I would say it depends far more on the theology than it does on the leadership. If you have solid leaders with poor theology, you may ‘grow’ a ‘successful’ church, but there won’t be much depth there, and without that, you won’t see the transformation.. that ought to be our real goal.
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Yeah Chris, a strong diverse church needs strong leaders, and BIBLICAL theology. But the danger is stating WHICH theology it has to be.
The preceding paragraph is very important in relating to the paragraph you quoted:
“There is a beautiful movement today of the “soul-dynamic” in the black church (see Carl Ellis’ book Free At Last?). This dynamic is what characterized the black church over the years when they knew God and saw God, and the God that they knew and saw (not systematically, but experientially and with some articulation of biblical truth) was sovereign, solid, and real. He sustained the black church through slavery and injustice and through crisis after crisis. We now have songs and music that were born out of that suffering, and that vision of God is amazingly coherent with the reformed vision of God as expressed by John Calvin, Martin Luther, Charles Spurgeon, and John Owen.”(Piper)
The truth is, and I think you agree with this, doctrine does indeed matter. Churches tend to go one way or the other…Man-centered or God-Centered. In my understanding of Scripture and Theology, the Reformed Tradition is the the theological tradition that best lends itself to the Biblical truth of an all powerful, completely sovereign God. Many churches today come up way short of that, despite the mouth service the give to a ‘sovereign’ God. I’m not saying all successful churches have to be Calvinist, all I’m saying is that you have to have a God centered view, and you must have a view of God that is bigger than your view of yourself. Again, that is not the case with many churches, and that is not the message you hear from many pulpits. If you read the entirety of what Piper is stating, I believe that is what he is saying. He is simply stating that when you look at the history of blacks in America, and their historical view of God, the Reformed tradition is very much in line with what they have historically held to be true.
I’m not interested in a Calvinist debate. But it is important to understand the totality of what Piper was saying, and it is important to know that our theology must be God centered…Despite what most churches say from their pulpits and on their websites, they are much more concerned with keeping the sheep fat and happy than they are with telling them how beautiful our God and Savior Jesus Christ is.
As you would agree though, you cant have one without the other. All love for people, and no doctrine or sound theology doesn’t work. By the same token, all doctrine and no love or relationships doesn’t work either…I would say it is even more dangerous simply because of the sense of pride and arrogance it seems to build up. You have to balance the two, and I think we both can agree on that!
Blessings my friend.
Artie,
Another great discussion. I’ve been out of pocket for the last few days. It looks like your readers have done a great job on the debate.
Here’s my two cents. God has blessed the Reformed as well as the Wesleyan Arminian traditions. Yet the are very different from one another on several points. God has blesses the Pentecostal movement as well as the Baptist movement and they both have differing views on spiritual giftings. Why does God bless both? Because he is far more interested in why His church exists than splitting theological hairs. That being said, having a strong theology is the key. Whose? God’s.
I hope that i’m not too late in this discussion. This has been one of my foci for quite some time now. Jodi and I come in contact with just about every doctrine, denomination, race and culture in an effort to unify our community. I have conversations routinely with atheists, agnostics, Christians and Muslims (and others). I have to agree with Piper on some issues. i even went back several times and re-read the post to try and truly understand what he is trying to say and he focuses on truth over and over again. He never states that one doctrine is the end of all discussions.
Where he is correct is his discernment about the watering down of theology and doctrine (I hate the term doctrine because of it’s exclusivity). I am analytical and I want to evaluate EVERYTHING to determine the beautiful or ugly truth, regardless of the results. The truth is that Biblical Christianity is becoming more and more pluralistic. I have examples of world, national and local information. We can all sit in a room and smile and sing about loving Christ all we want to, but that doesn’t make us one when we can leave the church and DO diapposed beliefs. HOW MANY SCRIPTURE CAN WE FIND THAT STATE THAT A HOUSE DIVIDED, OR UNLESS THEY ARE IN AGREEMENT they can’t walk together as one.
What do we believe? How do we know? Will we believe unto death? We need to KNOW that the Bible is dictated by God Himself and is real and inerrant. I have been very frustrated while attending various churches (I refuse to use the term black church, white church, yellow church, etc. The very use is based on race and thus racism), because some beleifs as confirmed by the pastors, state that they can’t prepare for a sermon. Preparing for a sermon would be relying on man and not God. These sermons ramble and teach absolutely nothing, but everyone leaves worn out and blissful. This is what Piper is referring to.
It’s not about follow my rules and regulations but about having consistancy in what is being taught. Getting along is not the primary goal. Being united with a foundation of truth is.
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You are a little off base here Joe. The question is not whether a church needs to embrace the Truth! That is a given. The issue is, does one camp of Theology need to be in place for a church to thrive in an environment of diversity?
Biblical Truth yes, one particular school of Theology…NO!
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My apologies if I wasn’t articulate. My point, as I believe Piper’s somewhat, is that there must be a common thought, interest or belief in order to show unity regardless of race. At the YMCA, there is a wonderful blend of ethnicity. Everyone there believes in being healthy and is motivated to do something about it. The common thread is a healthy lifestyle. It is doubtful that you would see a meeting of the smokers club meeting in the back room and if they did, they wouldn’t be welcomed by the majority of the Y members. The difference in philosophy is the dividing characteristic.
This was the point which I was attempting to make (as well as Piper). Many times there are core beliefs in the older, more traditional Black church methodologies which coincide with, in Piper’s terms reformed and in mine, truth. When we can focus on our core and/or similar beliefs instead of the differences, we can have unity and not until then. The evidence of this is the division between modern black (and white) churches who don’t have anything to teach, and the doctrinally grounded ones. There is little to no agreement and therefore there can not be unity.
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Being at a church that is in the heart of one of the most racially charged areas in the US (right between Selma, AL, and Montgomery, AL right off the highway MLK marched down many years ago) the ONLY thing that leads to diversity in the church is the heart of the leadership and how they help the people of the community/church connect with the vision that God has for the Church to be diverse. I don’t remember Jesus teaching Reformed Theology to the woman at the well. And I’m not saying there is anything wrong with Reformed Theology, I love the security is confirms, but this is a matter of reaching out to people, not about what we’re teaching. I think a lot of pastor’s, myself included, would do better by getting out from behind their pulpit and getting to know they people they “serve”.
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That’s a strong word there Stephen, and I love it! It’s not about all we know, it’s about how deep we love. If we miss that, we miss everything!
Bobby Capps says: Summary… lot’s of people defend Piper. On other news, great post! Our unity is in a Person not in a man-made doctrinal system (no matter how Biblical).
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That’s right, thanks Bobby, blessings my friend.
Didn’t read John’s entire article, just your quote. But I wonder if what John wasn’t really saying that his Calvinism requires his to be committed to diversity.
At least, that is what I would say. I am in the reformed tradition and blog almost daily on evangelism and reaching the lost. I too pastored a fairly large multi-ethnic church, over 23 countries of birth in the congregation, over 700 in size that planted 7 churches in its first decade, before leaving the church to invest my remaining years in mentoring young men to plant missionally aggressive churches to take the gospel to the next generation around the world.
Whatever argument you make here can be construed as your own theology and thus negates your argument. For example, “diversity is a cry of God’s heart” is a theology in itself. Is it not?
I would like to hear more about why the Reformed Tradition is wrong here instead of vaguely saying it’s wrong because it’s a broad theology and not a simple phrase.
Enjoyed the post well and I like people willing to challenge those in the spotlight.
fishguy76 says: this coming election who would God want you to vote for? I think our nation has fallen under judgement. we have a black man in the highest office in the land and some of my dear white brothers cannot srand it. they are walking in the flesh waving flags call the president all kinds of names . I do not agree with the stand on gay marriage or the abortion. But would the evangical church vote a Bishop Morman in the white house? I say yes they would because of the fact that most of they are walking in the flesh and not the spirit. I think God rised up President Obama and Gov Romney to Judge racest attuides in the church I ask Pastors to God only call white brothers to lead in your churches really? The fact is this has been the most disrepected President in our history. The church has truly failed to pray for this President honor his office and has not reachout to him with the true love of christ. I belive most of my white brothers have been blinded by pride and hate from there fathers. It is the church that must break this spirit. I hope you guys that speak of diversity are ready for waht is coming to this nation. It really does not matter who wins the what house. What matters is who is God raising up?
He raise up President Obama. they call him everything but a child of God So who will you vote for ? the test of the church. I left my chruch this pass week because of all the flag waving I love my country but this was all fleash and pride dressed up to support the gospel of the GOP. I hope and pray you guys will be ture to the word of God and not get pull into the wave of waht is happening to the churches today. Just I feels Now looking for a church not sure what Im going to do I know I want no part in a place that is like where I can from.
Nathan
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John Piper ~ Church Diversity depends on Calvinism? Come on! http://bit.ly/dOK1Tp
I sure would appreciate if someone could present a comparative Theological analysis in this forum in order to shed light on other theological and Biblical traditions taught by the known Theologians which may present an opportunity to make an informed response to Johns’ article. Come on please help.
I can see where John is coming from and if he is meaning it the way that I think he is then I agree with him. To me John is saying that african americans are understanding the truthfulness of reformed theology and are starting to be drawn to it. I disagree that churches don’t fail because of theology. You can take the most successful church planters, pastors, etc and have a big church with lots of money fail horribly because those same “successful” people have unbiblical, horrid theology. But, I agree with most of what you’re saying! God Bless and thank you for your Kingdom work and a great blog.
Thanks Cory, I think the point is, Reformed theology is not the only school of theology. Strong church needs good theology. But it doesn’t have to be Reformed.
After reading the entire article from Piper, I don’t think he’s saying that Calvinism will unite the Church. He’s saying that doctrine matters. When he emphasizes the reformed tradition, he is not saying Calvinism; he is embracing the very tradition that led to the formation of the Protestant Church. He’s emphasizing the need to base our understanding of God not on experience or what others tell us, but instead to ground our view of God on the Bible alone as authority.
There is no one school of theology that has it all right. But the reformed tradition will unite us in purpose and vision. I think it’s important to remember the “solas” that define the reformation: Sola scriptura (Scripture alone), sola gratia (grace alone), sola fide (faith alone), souls Christus (Christ alone), and soli Deo gloria (glory to God alone). When we are defined by these, I think unity will happen b/c we will have a solid foundation, fundamental agreement, and singular purpose
Thanks Charles. another point here is that a good, strong church doesn’t have to “announce” or broadcast their school of theology. Lets face it, if you advertise, that is what you will draw. I think we need “as many as would” to come.
Church Diversity depends on Calvinism?~John Piper. Come on! http://bit.ly/dOK1Tp
I am with the guys below. It seems to me that Piper is saying that a key component to diversity in the church is a right view of the sovereign God. God’s sovereignty is NOT a man-made theology, it is the character of God and is a BIBLICAL theology, and I think we are approaching dangerous territory to suggest otherwise. Theology not rooted in the Bible may not cause a church to “stop growing,” but it sure does remove the blessing of God over the church. A right view of God is very necessary when developing diversity in the church. I know that’s been the dominant reason for the diversity in our church. Has nothing to do with style of worship or any of those man-made components, but has everything to do with who God is and how He works. Just my two cents.
Hey Kenny, I don’t think any one questions the Sovereignty of God. But we know there are differing views and schools of theology. And to exalted one as being the only one or right for the context of a diverse church causes the opposite. It polarizes, it doesn’t bring unity.
I’m with you on this Artie. Articles like this echo Piper and Co.’s larger strategy to unite all Baptist denominations under the Calvinist banner, and while noble in a way, it ignores the fact that the “many young, black, thoughtful men and women who are seeing that the reformed tradition is coherent with-not contrary to-what has been deeply held and believed and lived out of in the black tradition” are in fact a small sector of the Black Baptist church-going population as a whole and not the large number in the White community that has aided the rapid growth of the Reformed Baptist movement.
But to me the larger issue is still the fact that people actually think Calvinism (or any doctrine for that matter) can cure all ills. It seems that folks run around with the unshakable belief that the Reformed Tradition can cure all ills from the racial divide to global warming to keeping the fresh-from-the-dryer smell in your clothes all week long. Doctrine is fine and all, but it’s still a distillation of God’s Word through man’s opinion, with all of the problems that it entails. If doctrine were the key, the Memphis Miracle would have happened in 1948 and not 1994.
RT: @ArtieDavis Church Diversity depends on Calvinism?~John Piper. Come on! http://bit.ly/dOK1Tp
//diversity is Gods idea! Always!
Artie,
great discussion. Our theology is the fuel drives how we live. As a black pastor of a large multi-ethnic church in the Charlotte, NC area, who is mentored by Dr. Norm Geisler, theology, apologetics , and philosophy are very important to how lead and teach.
It is important for us to remember that “the Reformed view” of John Piper is not the only expression of the faith that was birthed out the Reformation.
God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility do compete, they cooperate.
Derwin
Yeah, but is that school of Theology the “key” diversity? Can’t be. Then no leader who is Armenian can have diverse congregation.
RT @artiedavis: Really! John Piper ~ Church Diversity depends on Calvinism? Come on! http://bit.ly/dOK1Tp
RT @artiedavis: Blogged John Piper ~ Church Diversity depends on Calvinism? Come on!: http://tinyurl.com/4obqhoq
RT @artiedavis: Really! John Piper ~ Church Diversity depends on Calvinism? Come on! http://bit.ly/dOK1Tp
Wow, this hurts my heart. I have a ton of respect for John Piper. However, the exaltation of a system of beliefs over the unity of the body is damaging and stifles true unity in the Spirit. Unity is not singularly defined by “agreement”.
My biggest problem with Calvinism is that it so thoroughly defines God and all mystery is removed. It says that God can be fully known and proceeds to define Him. With that position, your mission then begins convincing everyone else of the truth that you have defined. Lines are drawn in the sand and while you can have a condescending smile of tolerating another belief system, ultimately you look down at them because they don’t see things as you see things. You cannot truly be united because you aren’t fully in agreement in all things. I’m sorry but that is not how relationships work.
I don’t believe diversity has anything to do with doctrine or theology. On the contrary, taking a position like Piper’s is VERY exclusive.
I’m not advocating cheapening truth. Jesus is the way the truth and the life. No doubt about that. There’s no room for inter-faith stuff. I won’t compromise on that. But I’m sorry, not breaking bread with someone (or doing it solely for the purpose of convincing them they are wrong) because of their stance on the TULIP is cancerous to the body.
Thanks Tony, you bring in another side to the discussion.
This hits home. John Piper ~ Church Diversity depends on Calvinism? Come on! http://bit.ly/dOK1Tp
What a true but sad thought. Our theology of God is important to the growth and yeah, even the diversity of the Church as a whole and in local churches. We need to know what we believe before we can teach others. All that is true. Before I continue, if someone asked me if I was a Calvinist or an Arminian I would probably answer “no”. I’m neither, but I do believe both are based in centuries of scriptural study by Godly men and women who have given their lives to serve Him. Both schools of thought have merit and should not be dismissed by the other without serious consideration. I believe both are inadequate as they seek to negate the other. And both views exclude certain scriptures in attempts to explain the other away.
After reading the article, I believe Piper is suggesting (after all his findings) that Reformed Theology is the way to diversify a church…that is what I find as sad. Calvinism, by nature, DOES teach diversity (Irresistible Grace). It doesn’t matter who you are (Unconditional Election) or where you come from, you will be saved, if you are elect. So I can see why he says what he says…but I disagree with him.
I don’t know if this will make sense or not, but I feel like Piper is looking at a global situation with American eyes. (The Americanization or Westernization of the Gospel is a different topic all together). With or without the Calvinism/Arminianism debate, the Church, globally, is diversified. Heaven is promised to be diversified in this way (every tongue, tribe and nation).
Maybe I am misreading Piper, but it sounds like diversity is the goal. This may not gel with some, but our goal is not diversity. Diversity should be more of a bi-product of the ministry. Our goal is to serve God fully where ever we are and where ever we go.
Great observations David, thanks for the input.
RT @artiedavis: Church Diversity depends on Calvinism?~John Piper. WOW! http://bit.ly/dOK1Tp
RT @artiedavis: Church Diversity depends on Calvinism?~John Piper. WOW! http://bit.ly/dOK1Tp
Dr. Piper’s comments are just part of a broader trend of he and his acolytes attempting to bring all Baptists into the Reformed fold. To think that African-American Baptists will jump onto the Reformed train when there’s nowhere near the tradition in “white” churches is a bit naive.
It also is another example of where adherents of the Teformed Tradition think that Calvinism can solve everything from climate change to keeping that just-from-the-dryer smell in your clothes all week long. Doctrine at it’s core is merely the nature of God through our flawed lens, and thinking it will solve all ills is simply naieve.
If Docrtine did solve all ills, then we would have had no need for the Memphis Miracle in 1994 as the doctrinally-identical charismatic and Pentecostal fellowships and denominations would have joined together in racial unity in 1948.
Thanks Loren!
Oh dear, I shouldn’t post on a blog on my phone. *blushes in embarrassment*
Keeping the just from the dryer smell in your clothes all week! That was really funny.
Ha. Thanks Dave.
Hard to swallow. John Piper ~ Church Diversity depends on Calvinism? Come on! http://bit.ly/dOK1Tp
Wow! My church is one of the 4% of churches in US that is truly diverse. While I personally hold to a lot of reformed systematic theology, my senior pastor doesn’t. So how does one explain our diversity based on Dr. Piper’s defense?
My point exactly Steve, it doesn’t.
RT @thesticks: Hard to swallow. John Piper ~ Church Diversity depends on Calvinism? Come on! http://bit.ly/dOK1Tp
I agree with Piper. The whole question/answer article explains his point wonderfully. He’s not advocating reformed theology as much as unified sound theology and holding fast to hard Truth rather than watery pluralism.
So – church diversity doesn’t come down to merely leadership but rather leadership leading in sound doctrine.
Interesting post, but it’s based on two flawed assumptions.
1) You assume Piper was talking about how to have a racial diverse local congregation. He wasn’t. He was speaking more broadly about racial reconciliation. People cannot be “reconciled” without a common agreement on the error, and theology helps us see the error.
2) You didn’t snip the most direct part of his answer to the question, “What should racial reconciliation be based upon?” His first words were, “Truth. Biblical truth, with a strong God-centered articulation of the gospel and the sovereignty of God.” Reconciliation not based on truth and the gospel will not sustain a local church nor The Church.
Thanks for chiming in Dave, let me answer those.
1. He specifically states that Reformed theology needs to be the “Base” racial reconciliation in the church.
2. To say the Reformed Theology is the only school of “Truth” means you are starting the conversation on a false premise.
Artie, from your quote it is clear he said no such thing. He said the reformed tradition is coherent with black church tradition. I seriously doubt Piper believes that reconciliation is possible only in Reformed churches. If that were true, it would be more widely noted in his many writings.
RT @artiedavis: Very Bold! Church Diversity depends on Calvinism?~John Piper. Come on! http://bit.ly/dOK1Tp
I have less of a problem with Piper’s words than I do with you saying that a multi-ethnic church’s “success depends on the leaders and those involved having a heart of unconditional love…” The success of no church is ‘dependent’ on it’s leaders…it is always dependent on God. Therein lies the issue with a ‘man-centered’ theology, it all comes back to us.
I would say that if you want a true Biblical view of a ‘Sovereign God’ you find that in the Reformed tradition. I know that will catch me some flack here, but I think it is simply true. I won’t say that every successful church needs to be Calvinist, and I don’t think that is what Piper is saying either. Simply said, our view of God must be bigger…A small view of God is why we see so little change within the church…There are always exceptions to every rule, because God is a God of grace and pours that out on whomever He will.
Well, Chris I think you would find ANY pastor that would agree that a churches success has nothing to do leadership. God places leadership in place to insure the success of the church. That is why the Spirit gives that gift!
Agreed, but you didn’t make that distinction. I would say it depends far more on the theology than it does on the leadership. If you have solid leaders with poor theology, you may ‘grow’ a ‘successful’ church, but there won’t be much depth there, and without that, you won’t see the transformation.. that ought to be our real goal.
Yeah C
Yeah Chris, a strong diverse church needs strong leaders, and BIBLICAL theology. But the danger is stating WHICH theology it has to be.
The preceding paragraph is very important in relating to the paragraph you quoted:
“There is a beautiful movement today of the “soul-dynamic” in the black church (see Carl Ellis’ book Free At Last?). This dynamic is what characterized the black church over the years when they knew God and saw God, and the God that they knew and saw (not systematically, but experientially and with some articulation of biblical truth) was sovereign, solid, and real. He sustained the black church through slavery and injustice and through crisis after crisis. We now have songs and music that were born out of that suffering, and that vision of God is amazingly coherent with the reformed vision of God as expressed by John Calvin, Martin Luther, Charles Spurgeon, and John Owen.”(Piper)
The truth is, and I think you agree with this, doctrine does indeed matter. Churches tend to go one way or the other…Man-centered or God-Centered. In my understanding of Scripture and Theology, the Reformed Tradition is the the theological tradition that best lends itself to the Biblical truth of an all powerful, completely sovereign God. Many churches today come up way short of that, despite the mouth service the give to a ‘sovereign’ God. I’m not saying all successful churches have to be Calvinist, all I’m saying is that you have to have a God centered view, and you must have a view of God that is bigger than your view of yourself. Again, that is not the case with many churches, and that is not the message you hear from many pulpits. If you read the entirety of what Piper is stating, I believe that is what he is saying. He is simply stating that when you look at the history of blacks in America, and their historical view of God, the Reformed tradition is very much in line with what they have historically held to be true.
I’m not interested in a Calvinist debate. But it is important to understand the totality of what Piper was saying, and it is important to know that our theology must be God centered…Despite what most churches say from their pulpits and on their websites, they are much more concerned with keeping the sheep fat and happy than they are with telling them how beautiful our God and Savior Jesus Christ is.
As you would agree though, you cant have one without the other. All love for people, and no doctrine or sound theology doesn’t work. By the same token, all doctrine and no love or relationships doesn’t work either…I would say it is even more dangerous simply because of the sense of pride and arrogance it seems to build up. You have to balance the two, and I think we both can agree on that!
Blessings my friend.
Artie,
Another great discussion. I’ve been out of pocket for the last few days. It looks like your readers have done a great job on the debate.
Here’s my two cents. God has blessed the Reformed as well as the Wesleyan Arminian traditions. Yet the are very different from one another on several points. God has blesses the Pentecostal movement as well as the Baptist movement and they both have differing views on spiritual giftings. Why does God bless both? Because he is far more interested in why His church exists than splitting theological hairs. That being said, having a strong theology is the key. Whose? God’s.
Good word Stephen, good word. Let’s keep the main thing, the MAIN THING!
I hope that i’m not too late in this discussion. This has been one of my foci for quite some time now. Jodi and I come in contact with just about every doctrine, denomination, race and culture in an effort to unify our community. I have conversations routinely with atheists, agnostics, Christians and Muslims (and others). I have to agree with Piper on some issues. i even went back several times and re-read the post to try and truly understand what he is trying to say and he focuses on truth over and over again. He never states that one doctrine is the end of all discussions.
Where he is correct is his discernment about the watering down of theology and doctrine (I hate the term doctrine because of it’s exclusivity). I am analytical and I want to evaluate EVERYTHING to determine the beautiful or ugly truth, regardless of the results. The truth is that Biblical Christianity is becoming more and more pluralistic. I have examples of world, national and local information. We can all sit in a room and smile and sing about loving Christ all we want to, but that doesn’t make us one when we can leave the church and DO diapposed beliefs. HOW MANY SCRIPTURE CAN WE FIND THAT STATE THAT A HOUSE DIVIDED, OR UNLESS THEY ARE IN AGREEMENT they can’t walk together as one.
What do we believe? How do we know? Will we believe unto death? We need to KNOW that the Bible is dictated by God Himself and is real and inerrant. I have been very frustrated while attending various churches (I refuse to use the term black church, white church, yellow church, etc. The very use is based on race and thus racism), because some beleifs as confirmed by the pastors, state that they can’t prepare for a sermon. Preparing for a sermon would be relying on man and not God. These sermons ramble and teach absolutely nothing, but everyone leaves worn out and blissful. This is what Piper is referring to.
It’s not about follow my rules and regulations but about having consistancy in what is being taught. Getting along is not the primary goal. Being united with a foundation of truth is.
You are a little off base here Joe. The question is not whether a church needs to embrace the Truth! That is a given. The issue is, does one camp of Theology need to be in place for a church to thrive in an environment of diversity?
Biblical Truth yes, one particular school of Theology…NO!
My apologies if I wasn’t articulate. My point, as I believe Piper’s somewhat, is that there must be a common thought, interest or belief in order to show unity regardless of race. At the YMCA, there is a wonderful blend of ethnicity. Everyone there believes in being healthy and is motivated to do something about it. The common thread is a healthy lifestyle. It is doubtful that you would see a meeting of the smokers club meeting in the back room and if they did, they wouldn’t be welcomed by the majority of the Y members. The difference in philosophy is the dividing characteristic.
This was the point which I was attempting to make (as well as Piper). Many times there are core beliefs in the older, more traditional Black church methodologies which coincide with, in Piper’s terms reformed and in mine, truth. When we can focus on our core and/or similar beliefs instead of the differences, we can have unity and not until then. The evidence of this is the division between modern black (and white) churches who don’t have anything to teach, and the doctrinally grounded ones. There is little to no agreement and therefore there can not be unity.
Being at a church that is in the heart of one of the most racially charged areas in the US (right between Selma, AL, and Montgomery, AL right off the highway MLK marched down many years ago) the ONLY thing that leads to diversity in the church is the heart of the leadership and how they help the people of the community/church connect with the vision that God has for the Church to be diverse. I don’t remember Jesus teaching Reformed Theology to the woman at the well. And I’m not saying there is anything wrong with Reformed Theology, I love the security is confirms, but this is a matter of reaching out to people, not about what we’re teaching. I think a lot of pastor’s, myself included, would do better by getting out from behind their pulpit and getting to know they people they “serve”.
That’s a strong word there Stephen, and I love it! It’s not about all we know, it’s about how deep we love. If we miss that, we miss everything!
Summary… lot’s of people defend Piper. On other news, great post! Our unity is in a Person not in a man-made doctrinal system (no matter how Biblical).
That’s right, thanks Bobby, blessings my friend.
Didn’t read John’s entire article, just your quote. But I wonder if what John wasn’t really saying that his Calvinism requires his to be committed to diversity.
At least, that is what I would say. I am in the reformed tradition and blog almost daily on evangelism and reaching the lost. I too pastored a fairly large multi-ethnic church, over 23 countries of birth in the congregation, over 700 in size that planted 7 churches in its first decade, before leaving the church to invest my remaining years in mentoring young men to plant missionally aggressive churches to take the gospel to the next generation around the world.
Whatever argument you make here can be construed as your own theology and thus negates your argument. For example, “diversity is a cry of God’s heart” is a theology in itself. Is it not?
I would like to hear more about why the Reformed Tradition is wrong here instead of vaguely saying it’s wrong because it’s a broad theology and not a simple phrase.
Enjoyed the post well and I like people willing to challenge those in the spotlight.
this coming election who would God want you to vote for? I think our nation has fallen under judgement. we have a black man in the highest office in the land and some of my dear white brothers cannot srand it. they are walking in the flesh waving flags call the president all kinds of names . I do not agree with the stand on gay marriage or the abortion. But would the evangical church vote a Bishop Morman in the white house? I say yes they would because of the fact that most of they are walking in the flesh and not the spirit. I think God rised up President Obama and Gov Romney to Judge racest attuides in the church I ask Pastors to God only call white brothers to lead in your churches really? The fact is this has been the most disrepected President in our history. The church has truly failed to pray for this President honor his office and has not reachout to him with the true love of christ. I belive most of my white brothers have been blinded by pride and hate from there fathers. It is the church that must break this spirit. I hope you guys that speak of diversity are ready for waht is coming to this nation. It really does not matter who wins the what house. What matters is who is God raising up?
He raise up President Obama. they call him everything but a child of God So who will you vote for ? the test of the church. I left my chruch this pass week because of all the flag waving I love my country but this was all fleash and pride dressed up to support the gospel of the GOP. I hope and pray you guys will be ture to the word of God and not get pull into the wave of waht is happening to the churches today. Just I feels Now looking for a church not sure what Im going to do I know I want no part in a place that is like where I can from.
Nathan